#284 | Sh*t I Tell My Friends #3: On the Difference Maker (a.k.a. Follow Your Interest)
Quick SUMMARY:
Douglas Vigliotti explores the idea of following your interests instead of chasing passion, calling it the “difference maker.” He explains how interests are more accessible and sustainable, sharing insights from books and real-life examples like Wayne Gretzky. Vigliotti introduces the Interest Principle, arguing that genuine interest drives motivation, endurance, learning, and long-term success. He also discusses the importance of aligning interests with others and highlights how true investment in what you enjoy leads to growth.
Listen to the episode:
LISTEN ON: Apple or Spotify 🎧
*Subscribe to The Books for Men Newsletter, a monthly round-up of every episode with full book and author info, all the best quotes, and newsletter-only book recommendations!
TOPICS COVERED IN the EPISODE:
Introduction to the Episode & Newsletter Reminder (00:09) - Host introduces the episode, explains the "Shit I Tell My Friends" series, and promotes the companion newsletter.
Interest vs. Passion (01:20) - Explains the difference between following interests and passions, emphasizing interests as simpler and more actionable.
Quote from "Perfection" and Job vs. Passion (02:25) - Shares a quote from Vincenzo Electronico’s "Perfection" about how passion changes when it becomes a job.
The Interest Principle and Motivation (03:43) - Introduces the "interest principle," discussing how personal choice increases motivation and investment.
Applying the Interest Principle (04:49) - Gives practical examples (writing, reading, singing) of leveraging interests to learn and excel.
Advice: Follow Your Interest (05:49) - Recommends following interests as a simple answer to the question, "What should I do?"
Wayne Gretzky Example and Innate Interest (05:49) - Shares Wayne Gretzky’s story to illustrate how innate interest drives greatness and persistence.
Innate Interest and Longevity (07:53) - Discusses how lasting longer in a field is often due to genuine interest, not just talent.
Willpower and the Power of Interest (08:50) - Explores the concept of will, suggesting interest is the key factor in willingness and motivation.
Aligning Interests and Skin in the Game (08:50) - Uses Nassim Taleb’s ideas to explain the importance of aligning interests for effective action and collaboration.
Misaligned Interests in Organizations (10:01) - Describes how misaligned interests and incentives can hinder organizational effectiveness.
The Value of "Wasting Time" on Interests (10:01) - Quotes Nassim Taleb on how time spent on genuine interests is actually a valuable investment.
Conclusion and Contact Information (11:08) - Wraps up the episode, encourages subscribing, and shares ways to connect with the host.
READ THE TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome back to “Books for Men”, a podcast to inspire more men to read and bring together men who do so. This is the third-ever edition of Sh*t I Tell My Friends, and it is titled On the Difference Maker (aka Follow Your Interest). So I will share a lot more about this, of course, and get into the details of what I'm actually talking about. And just as a reminder, this series is supposed to model things that I either have told my friends in conversation, do tell my friends today in conversation, or would tell my friends in conversation. I'm not sure how that reflects on me, but hopefully in a good light, I don't know. Anyway, before I jump into today's episode, I did want to quickly remind all the new listeners out there about the companion newsletter that goes with this podcast, and that's just a once-a-month email that rounds up all of the episodes from that month, complete with full book and author information. All of my favorite quotes, whether that's from the books or from the episodes, episode summaries, and additional book recommendations.
01:20 - So if that sounds like something that you are interested in, or perhaps you are already sold, and you just want to sign up, then all you have to do is head over to the website BooksforMen.org. All right. So now let's pivot back to the reason why you are here. The third-ever edition of Sh*t I Tell My Friends. And it is about following your interest, which is much different than following your passion. It could be one and the same, but I like to look at interest as something much, much simpler than passion. I think that word passion is thrown around pretty flippantly, and it's not particularly helpful. And so I think that there is a very, very big difference between what I am telling you and ultimately following your passion. Now, that doesn't mean that what you're interested in doesn't end up being something you're passionate about. But that's not what I am suggesting to you today—to find your passion and follow it. Having said that, I am going to do a bit of foreshadowing here and share a quote from a book that it will be coming up on the podcast pretty soon.
02:25 - And it's perfection by Vincenzo Latronico. But there's a quote from it that I really loved. And he writes, “They did for money now what they used to do out of passion. This was a fact. From this fact, they concluded that they had turned their passion into a job. This was a deduction.” And I like to start with this because it's a reminder that once something becomes your job, it changes. Even your passions, quote unquote. So choosing what you do is not as easy as just following your passion, which is why I like to say just follow your interest, which I think is a much more manageable task, and also something that you can become supremely good at or great at, and what you are great at, you will be rewarded for. Now I know that this sounds very simple, but stick with me here. If I gave you a choice of three meals to select from, you're going to eat the one that you are interested in. Why is this important? This is important because now you have skin in the game.
03:43 - So if we look at motivation in human behavior research, what we know is that people are empowered by the freedom to select on their own. And when they do, they're more invested in something as simple as a meal choice. Since you picked the meal, you probably will like it more. You will probably be more engaged with the eating experience. You're more likely to defend that selection. So how does this apply to your life? Well, it's the exact same thing. In short, if you want to do something, learn something, anything, then you should always place it within the context of your innate interests. So people who know me in my life know that I've coined this the interest principle. I've written about it before in multiple ways. And the reason why I say you have to follow what I call the interest principle is that not only will you enjoy it more, you'll care about it more. You'll be more likely to continue doing it, and there's a greater chance that you'll be better at it.
04:49 - So we can take writing as an example. If you want to learn how to write, then write about stuff that interests you. Ponies. Politics? Baseball, I don't care. Doesn't matter. Same thing for reading. Read about what interests you? Ponies, politics, or baseball? Singing? Same thing. Whatever skill you're trying to learn, it's a feeling that you are following. Not some supernatural calling, not some passionate endeavor that you are like, oh my gosh, I found this thing. The reason why I say this is that you know what interests you. So you've got to leverage the interest principle, because no matter what you do in life, it's always going to require work. It's going to require a lot of focus and a lot of dedication. If you want to be good at that thing, if you want to be rewarded for that thing. No, I'm not saying this is the objective for everyone, but in the world we live in, this is a question that comes up a lot. What should I do?
05:51 - And for that, I have a very simple answer: follow your interest. I've observed the interest principle in untold number of times across a multitude of disciplines, from sports to the arts and beyond. I probably heard this best exemplified in a documentary called “In Search of Greatness”, where they interviewed Wayne Gretzky, who is considered to be the greatest hockey player of all time, and they asked him about what it takes to be great. And he said, you know, parents always come up to him and ask them, what could their kid do to be great? And he gave a very simple answer. And he said, when I was a kid, I would go out into the backyard, and I would shoot pucks into an empty net, and when the sun went down, I would stay out there and do it. And when the kids would go down to play basketball at the basketball courts in the park, I would be out there shooting pucks. And no matter what else happened, I was in that backyard shooting pucks.
06:49 - And it wasn't because my parents told me to do it, or the kids told me to do it. It's just what I wanted to do. Now, I don't want to reduce the idea that the greatest hockey player was born merely out of interest, because there are a lot of great athletes and players, but I would venture to believe that all of the great ones were doing it just because they wanted to do it, in spite of everything else. And the reason why that matters is that there's always going to be somebody in whatever field that you're in that is doing it for that reason, and that person is always going to have a leg up. Now, I don't mean this to say that life is a competition, especially in the arts, because it is not. But I am here to tell you that it's incredibly hard work to make a career in the arts. So whether you're being competitive or not, sports are definitely competitive. And so getting a leg up is of supreme importance. But in the arts, it's just so hard and overbearing and non-linear.
07:53 - That's the only thing that could possibly drive you forward is innate interest. If you don't have an innate interest, there's literally no reason to start that thing, because there are going to be people who have that innate interest. There may not be as talented as you, but they are going to last longer. And in my view of the world and what I've observed, that lasting longer is probably the defining characteristic of, for lack of a better term. Quote unquote, people who make it or do the things that they end up wanting to do. And going back to that Wayne Gretzky example, he concluded by saying, there's no amount of times that you could tell your kid to go do something that's going to make them want to do it. They either want to or they don't want to. And I think it's the same thing with adults. You either want to do it or you don't want to do it, and there's no amount of talking about it or someone telling you about it that's going to make you want it.
08:50 - Will is one of the most misunderstood, confusing ideas around life. What makes someone willing versus another person unwilling, and I'm no pun intended, willing to bet that its interest. The idea of interest is so powerful that think about what happens when you align interests. I referenced skin in the game earlier, and there was a quote by Nassim Taleb, who wrote that book, “Skin in the Game”, of course, and he said, “Never ask the doctor what you should do. Ask him what he would do if he was in your place.” What's the difference in that? The difference is that you are now aligning interests. You're not asking the doctor for advice. You're asking him what he would do if he were you. And that subtle shift makes all the difference in the world. Skin in the game, right? Aligning interests. That's only two people. Consider what happens when you have hundreds, thousands, or millions of people aligning interests. Movements happen, and the inverse happens as well. I often talk about this with colleagues when it comes to corporations that have misaligned incentives or interests at different organizational levels.
10:01 - Think about it simplistically. If you have a head coach who wants to win and a general manager and owner who want to make money. You have interests that don't align, and the incentive structures don't align. It's going to be very hard to run an effective organization with misaligned incentives and misaligned interests. But I don't want to go off the beaten path here. I just want to draw a line around this idea of interest and show you how powerful it is when you not only follow your interest, but then have aligned interests with the people that are around you and in your life. And I want to just end this with one quote by Nassim Taleb, because I had already mentioned his name when he said, “What fools call ‘wasting time’ is most often the best investment.” And people that are interested in specific subject matter, whether it's finance or teaching or acting or writing novels or snowboarding, I don't even know. It could be anything. They're going to be willing to waste a lot of their time doing those things, and like Taleb just alluded to.
11:08 - Only fools don't understand the power in that. All right. That's all I've got. I hope you enjoyed this third edition of Sh*t I Tell My Friends. If you did, I want to remind you to please click subscribe on whatever podcast platform you're listening to this on, because it is the best way for new listeners to find the show and inspire more men to read. If you want to connect with me, there are two ways to do so, either on Instagram @DouglasVigliotti. It's the only social media that I have, via my website, DouglasVigliotti.com. Maybe you want to check out my latest book, “Aristotle for Novelists”. In that case, you can visit the website AristotleforNovelists.com. And last but not least, if you want more information on this podcast specifically, which includes signing up for that newsletter I mentioned at the top of this episode, then all you have to do is head over to the website BooksforMen.org.
