#187 | Unraveling Machiavelli: How to Be a Good Leader or How to Be Conniving, Cunning, and Ferocious?

episode SUMMARY:

Douglas Vigliotti dives into the enduring relevance of "The Prince" by Niccolò Machiavelli, a controversial Florentine Renaissance classic, and its complex nature as both satire and straightforward advice. Exploring the dark side of humanity and the unsavory aspects of power, influence, and persuasion, Vigliotti delves into what makes someone or something Machiavellian. Whether you agree or disagree with Machiavelli's philosophy, this episode will leave you pondering the intricate dynamics of leadership and human nature.

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Welcome back to Books for Men, a podcast to inspire more men to read and bring together men who do. So this week I am turning back to a work of nonfiction. It actually comes on the heels of my traveling to Italy. So Machiavelli was a Florentine official back in the 1500s or late 1400s, and it is kind of what queued me to share it on the podcast. So you may have heard the term Machiavellian before, and that means a lot of different things to a lot of people. But I think in short, it usually means something to the tune of evil or strategic or in favor of unsavory politics or methods to approaching people and power and could mean a lot of different things. But I do think it has a negative connotation to it, and I will get more into that momentarily. But I just wanted to lead with that because this is a term that you hear thrown around a lot in modern times.

(01:14)

So you'd be listening to a podcast and you'll just hear someone say, oh, that's very Machiavellian. Or you'll hear people casually say this just every day. I don't know people, or at least I hear people say it a lot. I mean, I don't want to make it sound like it's used like the word the or anything like that, but I hear it a lot. And so this is the genesis of that term, right? This work that I'm sharing with you today, The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli, is the reason why that term has lasted 500 years, 600 years. The interesting thing about this book particularly is that it's hard to tell if Machiavelli intended this to be a straightforward approach to strategy or if he was doing it in a satirical way. And I know that the common theory is that it's straightforward read, but there are a lot of people out there who think that he was doing this satirically.

(02:14)

And no matter what camp you find yourself in, you could find contradictions either way. And for me, this raises a really interesting question right from the jump before we get into even any of the content, which is interesting in its own right. And that is just what the author intends and what does the reader actually comprehends? And I think that a lot of times there is a disconnect because you are not the author, you are not the artist, you are not the musician, you are not the filmmaker. And a lot of times things are received differently than what an artist or author intends. And that doesn't mean that the consumer is wrong. It just means that there's the original intent and then there's what happens when it goes out into the world. And that's not to say that Machiavelli wasn't intending to have his book received in the way that it was, but I'm just raising this question and this idea because I do think that it happens a lot more than we like to think with modern art and with modern literature.

(03:25)

Ultimately, I don't think it matters because what matters is the way that you interpret it and how you interpret it based on all your experiences, your worldview, and the context of your life. But either way, this book represents that duality of how is Machiavelli really writing this. Why do some people think it's satirical and why do some people think it's straightforward? So you should know that the reason why Machiavelli wrote this book is that he was basically trying to get in good favor with Lorenzo the Magnificent, who is a son of Piero Medici, who was a famed ruling family in Florence for, I don't know, I think it was something like 60, 70 years maybe. Basically, they went out of rule, they got taken over by, I believe it was the ruler of France at the time, Louis VII, or something like that.

(04:30)

And when that happened in the late 1400s, Machiavelli got to work alongside Louis VII and then his successors when the Medici family came back into power in the, I think it was early 1500s, 1512, I think that's what I have written down here. Machiavelli at that point was tortured and exiled to the countryside for plotting against the Medici family, who again came back into rule. And this is when it said that Machiavelli turned his attention away from politics and into literature and wrote this book called The Prince. And as I've mentioned, it was a gift for Lorenzo the magnificent to try to get back into good favor with the family. And there's no evidence to support that Lorenzo ever actually read The Prince, which is interesting. But the idea for why Machiavelli wrote the book kind of plays into some of his ideas inside of the work, if that makes sense.

(05:37)

Because in it, there's this baked-in contradiction. He talks about this idea that you have to pay attention to the people who are trying to gain favor with you. He calls them because people have unsavory intentions if they are flattering you all the time. And I thought that this was interesting because the work itself is him trying to flatter Lorenzo. So within inside of the work even itself, like the entire context of it, there's this contradiction. And so when someone says, is it straightforward or is it satirical instantly you have this major idea that you have to contend with. I find it hard to believe Machiavelli could write something like that inside of the text and at the same time not know that that is what he intended to do with the work. So right there, to me, there's a conflict. With that being said, if it's a satire or if it's a straightforward read on this either way, I think what the book is attempting to do is address “truth.”

(06:48)

And to be good satire, it needs to have a lot of truth baked in. To be a good straightforward read, it has to have a lot of truth baked in. I think where a lot of people have problems with anything that's Machiavellian is a little too close to home and people don't want to believe that people think this way or do these things. I don't want to make it sound like I have a dark point of view on humanity, but I do feel like there is a lot of darkness in people and every person carries with them a dark side. This is something that I talked about in the book, The Laws of Human Nature by Robert Greene, which I featured on this podcast months ago. And he also is at times accused of being Machiavellian with some of his work. But I think really what that's getting at is pointing out the unsavory sides of people and the unsavory sides of humanity that while they might feel morally suspect, they're super real.

(07:52)

And that's what makes humans, humans. And I think that there's great power in reading a work like this or any work that does that because it acquaints you with the total picture of the human being. And I can't remember if I completed the description of what this book actually is, so I'll do it for you really quick now. And that is Machiavelli is said to have studied all of these princes, rulers, and kings from ancient times and the Roman Empire, and, also people that he worked alongside. And he basically put together a how-to book on how you can conquer new land and how a prince should act if he wants to rule. And I think that this is where the whole thing of what makes something Machiavellian is because the core idea and the one that the book is most known for is this idea that a prince has to be cunning yet ferocious.

(08:50)

He has to be a fox, to be able to outwit outsmart, and see all of the traps and snares and a lion who can frighten the wolves and the people that they're trying to rule. Baked into That is the idea that it is better to be feared than loved. But that's really just the starting point. There are so many other things that he covers in the book, utilizing examples from history, or at least his examples from history, he talks about things like one must be able to look out to the future and see things in advance because if things set in, they become incurable, right? So whether it's an idea or someone else plotting against you, you've got to be able to see far in advance because once it's already infiltrated you, it's hard to cure it. He believes that the most important thing for any ruler is his military.

(09:48)

So you have to strengthen that. And you can't adopt mercenaries or employ outsiders because, in the end, they will betray you. So you have to prefer defeat with your own troops, over victory with somebody else's, and you should build up your military. One of the other ideas that he talks a lot about is that he believes princes should be wise on their own merits, which means if you're gaining knowledge from seeking counsel, it's not as good as being wise on your own. However, it is the wise who understand that they need to seek counsel. It's basically like you need to defend you. And he talks a lot about the lucky, right? So what happens when a prince luckily gets awarded territory by somebody else who conquers it? You could instantly see that there are a lot of ways that you can transpose these ideas or transfer these ideas into one's own life, or even in the macro sense, the times of today and what it means to be an elected official inside of a democracy or a dictator in a dictatorship.

(11:02)

So look, I'm not going to go into all of the ins and outs of everything that's covered inside of the book because what would you read it for? And I want you to go read it. It's a short book, whether you agree with the philosophy that Machiavelli sets forth or you don't, whether he even agreed with it or whether he was making fun of it in a way we don't know, we can have a read on it. And I think that as I led this off with, it's always important to remember that there are multiple ways that you could look at something and read into something, but even if you are not Machiavellian or don't see yourself as Machiavellian or supporting any of his ideas, still would be I think an interesting thing for somebody to read. Because at the end of the day, it's pretty entertaining and it's a work and an idea that has lasted a very long time inside popular culture, which is not the easiest thing to do.

(12:00)

As I pointed out in the episode prior to this one about history and how time washes things away, this book has stood the test of time. I will leave you with one quote that I liked from the book, and that is: “Everybody sees what you seem to be, but few really feel what you are; and these few dare not oppose the opinion of many.” Alright, so for the sake of time, that's all I've got. I think I said a lot about this book more than I probably intended to realize I've been going on a little bit longer than normal episodes. With that being said, if you enjoyed it, I hope you will share it with a friend, a family member, or somebody else who you think might like it, because at the end of the day, what we're trying to do here is inspire more men to read. And I need your help to do that, to double down on that support.

(12:57)

There's one thing that I think you could do, and that is to hit the subscribe button on whatever podcast platform you're listening to this on. In doing that, you're helping more people find the show. Yes, I reduced it. I used to say rate, review. I don't care about any of that. I just want you to hit that subscribe or follow button on whatever platform you're listening to this on. If you want to connect with me, you can always do so @DouglasVigliotti on Instagram. It's the only social media that I have. And for more information, you can always visit BooksforMen.org where you can get full transcripts for all these episodes, as well as sign up for the newsletter, which is a monthly roundup of every episode, complete with full book and author information, all the best quotes and newsletter only book recommendations. Again, all you have to do is head over to BooksforMen.org.