Skin in the Game | Nassim Nicholas Taleb

episode SUMMARY:

In this episode of the Books for Men podcast, host Douglas Vigliotti discusses the book Skin in the Game by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. He explains that the book falls into the genre of big idea books and discusses the two types of big idea books: those grounded in research and data, and those grounded in case studies and anecdotes. Vigliotti argues that a balance of both is important for a book to be entertaining and practical, then praises Taleb for his fearlessness in sharing his opinions and perspectives, describing Skin in the Game as a book that explores the concept that having a personal investment in a situation leads to a different perspective and behavior. Vigliotti also mentions other books in Taleb's "Incerto" series but recommends starting with Skin in the Game for its practical value. The episode concludes with a call to support the podcast and spread the initiative of inspiring more men to read.

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Welcome back to Books for Men, the podcast to inspire more men to read and bring together men who do. And so if you've been tuning in since the first episode, then you will probably notice a trend here as I am flipping back and forth between fiction and non-fiction. So last week we had a novel, a crime novel, one of my favorites, Lush Life. You can go back and you can listen to that episode. And today we're going to be featuring and pivoting into a non-fiction book. And that book is Skin in the Game by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. So just some nuts and bolts about the book before I jump into what it is and some of the larger ideas and things around the book and why I think you might enjoy it and why I think it's pretty much a foundational book for understanding the world.

(01:07)

But anyway, before we talk about that, I did just want to qualify, or I should say, categorize the book because I feel like a lot of non-fiction books fall into two camps, at least in the big idea genre, and this is a big idea book. And so you either have the big idea books that are heavily grounded in research and data, or the big idea books that are more grounded in case studies and anecdotes. And so of course there's a spectrum, and every big idea book is probably a blend of both. I'm not saying that one is better than the other or anything like that. There are trade-offs that get made when you have a focus on one thing more than the other always in life. And so one of the trade-offs that I think that gets made when you have books that are heavily grounded in data and research is the entertainment value.

(02:03)

Unless you like reading journals or studies or things of that nature, it's really, really boring to read books that are just purely data-rich and don't feature enough stories or case studies or anecdotes because at its core, no matter what type of big idea book it is, it always has a big idea that is central to it. And so there's a narrative that the author is trying to spin, right? It's a point that they're trying to make or something that they're trying to prove. And so you can always cherry-pick data. You can always cherry-pick stories. And the other problem that I find with books that are purely just data-rich are that most times they lose a sense of practicality. And for me as a reader, practicality is a huge, huge component, at least in the big idea genre. If you're trying to teach me something or show me something and it is not practical enough, then you lose me.

(03:02)

And I think that there are a lot of people that feel this similarly to me. And then there are other people who feel differently. And of course, you could be on the other side where you have a book that is highly entertaining with a lot of stories and anecdotes, but it's not grounded in really anything. The author isn't very interesting. They don't raise many interesting ideas or points or have any layers to the ideas or have any angles that seem interesting, and they have no research to support them either. And so there could be problems with both styles. Anyway. How does this all relate to today's book Skin in the Game? Well, I think that Taleb combines a cocktail of everything. And I think that that's what makes Skin in the Game a really interesting book. And his fearlessness is really what amplifies it and makes Taleb, and why do I say fearlessness?

(03:58)

Because look, Taleb is a guy who will probably rub some people the wrong way. But to me, above all of the other things that I had mentioned in regard to features of non-fiction or big-idea books, fearlessness is the thing that makes them great. If you're not willing to share your opinions or actually say something, then the book really, really loses credibility for me. And I find that a lot of big idea books, they dance between the middle of, we're trying to say something, but we're not really saying anything at all. And it's because we're, we're too afraid to really, really dive in and say what we're thinking. And Taleb doesn't really, really do that. And I think that that's where some people, either jive with him or they don't jive with him because he definitely has a perspective, which leads me right into Skin in the Game.

(04:50)

What is skin in the game? The idea is simple in that if you do have skin in the game or you don't have skin in the game, you're going to look at a situation completely differently. And not only are you going to look at a situation completely differently, you're going to act completely differently. And in too many instances in life, we have situations where there is risk asymmetry and those people are calling the shots, whether it's in your life or whether it's in the world, in its society, in systems, in government, in corporate America, in the public sector, everywhere it, it's really everywhere. But what's important to remember is that when you do have skin in the game, you look at the situation in a completely different manner. What's important, what's practical, what reality actually says is important is reminded to you all the time because you're doing it.

(05:43)

You have skin in the game, you're a practitioner. You're not just somebody out there that's a talking head. And I think that going back to the beginning when I was speaking about the styles of non-fiction or big idea books, I think one of the things that we often run into in this genre, and this is not to rail on the genre because I love it, is, but it's definitely there, is that you have a lot of people without skin in the game sharing things to people with skin in the game. And those people with skin in the game are going to look at the situation vastly different than the people without skin in the game. And so if you can't cross that bridge and become more practical, you really, really are, in my opinion, doing a disservice unknowingly a lot of times. But you are.

(06:34)

And so I don't know. I mean, I think most people are going to look at tib and they're going to say he's a contrarian. I don't think he's as much of a contrarian or that his viewpoints are radical. I just think he's willing to say things that others aren't. In a society that values perception over reality, those types of people typically become pariahs or they're looked at as iconoclast or something of that nature. But even just the other day, I heard Russ Roberts, the economist, talk about when he had Taleb on his podcast, which he's had him on as a guest a few times, he had said that one of the things that skin in the game is it's basically the bread and butter of economics and the problem of missing incentives in life. And so my takeaway of that was that quite simply, it's not the idea that's new, and quite oftentimes it never is.

(07:28)

It's the layers and the angles that the author and Taleb in this sense are able to bring to this idea. It's a fresh look at it. And even more importantly, his fearlessness allows him or enables him, or whatever word you want to utilize for it to hold this idea up as a mirror to society and point out all of the obvious, sometimes not-so-obvious areas where there is risk asymmetry and where people are lacking skin in the game. And this ruffles a lot of feathers. But if I'm being honest, these are the type of individuals that I really, really enjoy reading, even if at times I don't agree with their opinion, it's just refreshing to hear somebody who's willing to really put themselves out there and have a point of view. Or as Taleb says in the book, “If you do not take risks for your opinion, you are nothing.”

(08:24)

And it's those types of harsh insights that really open your eyes or challenge you in a way because at the end of the day, when you look at even that one little maxim if you do not take risk for your opinion, you are nothing. There is a hint of truth to it that cuts right through to the core. If you're not willing to take a risk for your own opinion, how much should we as a society really value that opinion? And I think that you could make a great case that unless you're willing to take a risk for it, it shouldn't be valued at all because you might not believe in it as much as you suggest that you do. Or as Taleb would say, never ask a doctor what you should do. Ask him what he would do if you were in your place or never ask a trader what stock they recommend ask them what’s in their portfolio. Where there is risk, there is conviction.

(09:21)

And so there's a great sense of truth that lies in a lot of these harsh maximums or harsh insights about life or about having skin in the game or not having skin in the game that really cut through to the reader and sometimes make it uncomfortable, especially if you find yourself in a situation where you start having to take your own medicine and ask, how much skin in the game do I actually have in this situation? And how is it affecting the decisions that I'm making? And believe me, I've had to answer this question in my own life multiple times, and the answer is not always flattering. So you have to kind of swallow a pretty tough pill in that situation, right? I mean, there are times when I have a lot of skin in the game and there are times when I haven't had much skin in the game at all.

(10:11)

And I could tell you from that experience that when I had skin in the game, I thought about it a lot differently than when I didn't have skin in the game. And perhaps what made me look at something even more different than that is when I had soul in the game. So when you do something that has your soul in it, that has your identity wrapped up in it, that has who you are wrapped up in it, it really, really changes the way you look at something. And so I think that that's a whole nother level to the idea, but I will wrap this episode up in fear of beating a dead horse here. I think you have a pretty clear understanding. And as I mentioned at the top of this episode, there are four other books that are a part of the Concerto series, which is a Latin word for uncertain.

(10:57)

And since most of his work deals with the uncertainty around life, that is pretty applicable, I would say. And so the other four books are Antifragile, which is a book about things that grow from disorder, things that are the opposite of fragile. They grow from chaos, they get stronger from disorder. This is a really, really interesting idea all in itself. Fooled By Randomness is another one in that series, which is how we systematically and consistently throughout life get fooled by things that just happen randomly. Then there's The Black Swan, which is a book that focuses on the extreme impact of the singular in seemingly random, unpredictable events that are black swans, right? And the last book in that series is called The Bed of Procrustes, which is basically a book of aphorisms on so short little musings on life luck, probability risk, and everything that Taleb talks about really in all of his books.

(12:09)

And I should say that I have read each of them, and I would definitely start with Skin in the Game, the book that I shared here, mainly because I think it has the most practical value of all the books to change your life or to alter your perspective. Not that the others don't. And not that I don't think that they're all great books. I bought the box set so I have a nice bound box set of all five of the books in the series. I only do that when I really, really like something. But I feel like Skin in the Game really has the power and really has the foundational elements to alter your perspective and to alter the way that you look at something tomorrow in your life. So as always, I wanted to thank you for listening, and I wanted to thank everyone who has supported the podcast in the initiative, which is to inspire more men to read and bring together men who do because, at the end of the day, this is the most important thing. So please consider rating, subscribing, and following all that stuff that lets the world know that they should be listening to this show as well. But you can also make a dent just by telling friends and family members about the podcast, and that would be equally beneficial and impactful to helping spread the initiative and to get the word out there. And remember, for more information, visit BooksforMen.org where you can also sign up for the newsletter, which is a monthly roundup of all the authors and books that are featured on the podcast.