#272 | Is It Possible to Have a Meaningful Conversation About a Book You Haven’t Read?
Quick SUMMARY:
Douglas Vigliotti dives into Pierre Bayard’s book "How to Talk About Books You Haven’t Read." Vigliotti explores Bayard’s key ideas, such as the importance of understanding a book’s cultural context over having read it, and discusses concepts like one’s “inner library” and how it mingles with the collective discussion of a book or someone else’s inner library. He shares personal reflections, critiques the book’s approach, and encourages honest, open literary conversations, even if they haven’t read every book discussed on the podcast.
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TOPICS COVERED IN the EPISODE:
Introduction & Book Announcement (00:09) - Douglas introduces the podcast, the featured book, and mentions the companion newsletter.
About Pierre Bayard & Literary Criticism (01:14) - Background on the author, his other works, and an overview of literary criticism.
Purpose of the Podcast & Book Relevance (02:23) - Douglas explains the podcast’s intent and why this book is especially relevant for listeners.
The Problem: Too Many Books, Not Enough Time (03:40) - Discussion of the central issue: more books exist than anyone can read, and how to converse about unread books.
Book’s Structure & Key Frameworks (04:48) - Overview of Bayard’s approach, including the four categories of book familiarity.
Forgetting Books & The Three Libraries (05:57) - Exploration of memory, forgetting books, and Bayard’s concept of the three libraries.
The Three Books: Inner, Screen, and Phantom (07:14) - Explanation of the three types of books in conversation and their implications.
Practicality & Cultural Pressure (08:52) - Reflection on the practical use of Bayard’s ideas and the value of admitting you haven’t read a book.
Yes-And Attitude & Critique of Not Reading (10:12) - Encouragement to engage in conversation, critique of the book’s stance on not reading, and thoughts on audiobooks.
Favorite Quote & Book’s Impact (11:19) - Douglas shares his favorite quote from the book and discusses its significance.
Closing Remarks & Promotions (12:30) - Final thoughts, how to connect with Douglas, and promotion of his own book and the podcast newsletter.
READ THE TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome back to “Books for Men”, a podcast to inspire more men to read and bring together men who do. So this week I have a work of non-fiction to share with you. It's a book that I read recently, and as soon as I read it, I thought to myself, I had to share this book on the podcast. It is titled “How to Talk About Books You Haven't Read” by Pierre Bayard, and it's around 208 pages. It came out in 2007, and I am going to share a lot more about the book, the author, some of my big takeaways, some of the key ideas, things that I found interesting, and why you should probably read this book, and even some things that I didn't like about this book before I do any of that. I did want to quickly remind you about the companion newsletter that goes with this podcast, and that's just a once-a-month email that rounds up all of the episodes from each month, complete with full book and author information, episode summaries, all of my favorite quotes, and additional book recommendations.
01:14 - So if that sounds like something that you are interested in, or perhaps you want to sign up for it, then all you have to do is visit the website BooksforMen.org. Okay, so as always, I like to start with the author. So who is Pierre Bayard? He is a literature professor at Paris 8 University in Paris, France, of course, and he's also the author of many books in French. But along with the one that I am sharing today, his other popular English translations are “Who Killed Roger Ackroyd?” and “Sherlock Holmes Was Wrong”. The former is a revisiting of Agatha Christie's famous novel “The Murder of Roger Ackroyd”, and the latter is a revisiting of a famous Sherlock Holmes case, which is escaping me right now. I can't remember which one, but basically, Bayard's focus is on literary criticism, and I'm not sure I've ever featured the genre on the podcast before. Or maybe I have and forgot that the point of the genre is mostly to place any work in a broader context. So stylistically, historically, etc., that type of thing, mostly for educational purposes.
02:23 - In my eyes, literary criticism should never be taken as fact, ever. It's merely an educated opinion on a piece of literature that holds all of the frailties and errors of any human perspective, but the advantage of widespread knowledge on a particular subject matter, in this case, literature, which means, unless pandering is your aim, they serve very limited value to a creator. But for a consumer or as a consumer, I should say they can be quite entertaining. So, enter the book that I'm sharing with you today, “How to Talk About Books You Haven't Read”. And maybe, considering that you probably have not and will not read most of the books I share with you on this podcast, because if I'm being honest, that was never the point of the show anyway. It was more or less just to introduce you to a widespread variety of books that you may like and have you pick 1 or 2, hopefully being entertained or inspired or something by this quick little ten-minute tidbit that I talk about each book. But considering the fact that you will probably not read most of these books, there might not be a more appropriate book to share with you than the one that I am sharing with you today, especially if you want to chat about books with other people.
03:40 - In short, in building off of what I just started to say there, it's a book that tackles a very real problem for every human, and that problem is, there are more books to read than you will ever be able to read. So how do we have conversations around these books? Especially when one person has read a book and the other hasn't? This is a classic example of what he calls a dialogue of the deaf. I mean, it's a really fun idea. The idea that one person has deep knowledge or supposed knowledge of a particular book, and they're chatting with somebody who has no knowledge of the book. We find ourselves in these conversations so much. And that's why I just really love the setup of this book and what it's actually trying to tackle. Because, as a reader, this is a very common problem, I would say. I think one of my biggest gripes with this book is that it takes about, I don't know, 60 pages or so to get into the actual cell of the book.
04:48 - So the self-titled hook, how to talk about books you haven't read. He really sets the groundwork with some knowledge and definitions and things of that nature before he dives into some more situations and scenarios. So I guess the big question is, how do you talk about books that you haven't read? And in a reductive sense, Bayard basically claims that understanding the book's place in the larger body of literature, so as in what people think of it, its relation to other books, its historical context, all of that stuff is more important than reading the actual book. This strikes me as a reasonable point of view, and also appropriate for a literary critic. I don't know how much people who aren't that invested in literature are going to be able to do that, but it does make sense on face value. He breaks books down into four categories. Don't know it. Heard of it? Skimmed it or forgotten it? I like that because, as he says in the book, they all end up in the same pile anyway.
05:57 - Or more specifically, there's a quote that I pulled. He says: “If, after being read, a book immediately begins to disappear from consciousness to the point where it becomes impossible to remember whether we have read it. The very notion of reading loses its relevance, since any book read or unread will end up the equivalent of any other.” It's an interesting idea, for sure, and makes sense, because any reader knows that you do forget a lot of the book that you read, unless you're actively taking notes on it. So I do love his framework for what he calls the three libraries and three books that are in consideration or should be in consideration when you're in a conversation with people. So let me start with the three libraries. The first is your inner library, which is books you have read and hence have shaped you. Or as he writes in the book: “In every such discussion, our inner libraries built within us over the years in housing all of our secret books come into contact with the inner libraries of others, potentially provoking all manner of friction and conflict.
07:14 - I love this idea because it makes it very personal, which is real. The second library is the collective library, which is all the books and their relation to each other. And then the third is the virtual library, which is how books are discussed in the ether, encompassing the social milieu of each book, of course, and then a rung down from the libraries. You have the three books, and you have the inner book, which is the highly subjective and particular book based on the reader's beliefs, opinions, and experiences. So everybody internalizes a story in a different way, or as he writes in the book: “It might then be said that the chances of wounding an author by speaking about his book are all the greater when we love it.” And the reason for that is simple, because it's very rare that what the author is feeling and what a book means to them, even though you may like it and love it as a consumer, it's very rare that those things line up. And so the best thing that he says you could do when you meet someone who you admire, just compliment them and say how much you loved it, but offering your opinion on what it means and all of that stuff could actually do the opposite, because it becomes very personal when you read a book, and it could be very different than what that creator actually was thinking or feeling or wanting to convey.
08:52 - I thought this was a really interesting idea. The second book was the Screen book, which is a fragmented and often false version of the book based on what is being said about it. So books take on their own meaning in culture, and oftentimes, there's a false representation of what it actually is, but nonetheless, it's just as real. Because if everybody's talking about it in that way, then what's the difference? And then the third book is the Phantom book, which is representative of all the versions other than your own. And so I think that this is a really fun idea to grapple with. But other than entertainment, I don't find much practical use because I don't know if anybody in real life is speaking with this type of language or having the time to frame a debate or conversation with it, as simple as it might be. Having said that, I do think that the book offers many tips and tricks, perhaps most importantly, relieving you of the cultural pressure to say, yeah, I've read it, and instead just admit that you have it and offer your opinion anyway, based on whatever your perspective is of the book or work or how it sits in culture.
10:12 - I love this book because so often people shut down a conversation with “no” as opposed to “yes”. And this is a classic improv technique in a scene to keep it going. “Yes, and…” This book is very much a yes-and book. Embrace this objective. Have fun with it. The only thing that I struggle with is its emphasis on not reading over reading. It feels sort of like an easy out for the lazy. Or maybe that's what our society has become, so maybe it's even more necessary than ever. Hate to be cynical about it, but I always find it funny that reading is the only form of entertainment that needs to be morphed into another form of entertainment to keep it fervent. And of course, I'm talking about audiobooks, so we never see a song be read or a movie be listened to, or some other weird combination, but we had to take reading and make it something you listen to. To me, that's interesting. We pretend like audiobooks are reading, but they're not; listening is listening.
11:19 - Watching is watching. Reading is and will forever only be reading. But as Bayard reminds us in this book, perhaps there's no difference between reading something and not reading something. So let's just chat about it. All right, so I think I've gone on long enough here, and you get the point. You know what this book is about. But there is one quote that I wanted to share with you because it is my favorite from the book. And Bayard writes, “Within the interminable chain that links all books together, a single book has the capacity to displace every other one.” I love that because it places importance on any one book. It can change your inner library, the collective library, the virtual library. It has the power within it to change everything else that you've read or will read. That's just an amazing and empowering quote. All right. So that's all I've got. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, I want to remind you to please click subscribe on whatever podcast platform you're listening to this on, because in doing so, that's how new listeners find the show, and we inspire more men to read.
12:30 - If you want to connect with me, there are two ways to do so: on Instagram @DouglasVigliotti. It's the only social media that I have or via my website DouglasVigliotti.com. I do have a new book out. It is titled “Aristotle for Novelists: 14 Timeless Principles on the Art of Story”. If you're interested in learning more about that, you could visit the website AristotleforNovelists.com. Last but not least, I wanted to thank you so much for listening and remind you that if you wanted more information on this podcast specifically, which includes signing up for that newsletter, I mentioned at the top of this episode that all you have to do is visit the website BooksforMen.org.
